Sygyt mouth and tongue positions

[Negeltu]

Just want to say hello as this is my first post on this forum and probably not my last.. :)

Now I have a question or two...

I am not clear on the mouth and tongue positions for sygyt. Most suggestions are a bit too unclear for me to understand. Some descriptions even sound like western overtone singing to me. I'm assuming this is the result of a lack of understanding of proper technique? Can someone try to describe in more detail for me?

I just started practicing TS about a week ago and after the 2nd day fell right into the Karg voice. Matter of fact when I try to get the khoomei voice I fall right back into the Karg. I can't seem to stay away from it. Anyone have any suggestions for me?

[Martinson]

I am not clear on the mouth and tongue positions for sygyt. Most suggestions are a bit too unclear for me to understand. Some descriptions even sound like western overtone singing to me. I'm assuming this is the result of a lack of understanding of proper technique? Can someone try to describe in more detail for me?

I don't know the answer myself, but I know that Steve recently put online a sygyt lesson at http://khoomei.com/lessons.htm. I haven't purchased this one yet, but I can say his first lesson was well worth the $25.00, and I would assume the same of his sygyt lesson.

[Negeltu]

Yes, his lessons look very good, but unfortunately I cannot afford them currently. I'm not saying they are overpriced or anything like that...as they actually cost less than what I would have expected. Due to social anxiety I have a hard time keeping money flowing so you get the picture.

I do hope someone has some insight for me. TS seems to bring peace to my mind state and I find it very soothing.

Thanks for posting

[aiwetir]

Just want to say hello as this is my first post on this forum and probably not my last.. :)

Now I have a question or two...

I am not clear on the mouth and tongue positions for sygyt. Most suggestions are a bit too unclear for me to understand. Some descriptions even sound like western overtone singing to me. I'm assuming this is the result of a lack of understanding of proper technique? Can someone try to describe in more detail for me?

I just started practicing TS about a week ago and after the 2nd day fell right into the Karg voice. Matter of fact when I try to get the khoomei voice I fall right back into the Karg. I can't seem to stay away from it. Anyone have any suggestions for me?

i guess you could say that it sounds like overtone singing because of your technique, but that's a very sort of simplified explanation.
it can take years of practice (i'm at 5.5 years) to have a good khorekteer, khoomei, kargyraa and sygyt, not just a matter of suddenly finding the proper technique by someone's description over the internet.

anyway, a quick very simplified description for sygyt, you would normally want your head square on your shoulders, not tilted back or forward, your jaw down and forward. your lips should be sort of like they would be for an 'oo' sound sort of like in 'food' but more open than that - (sorry that just doesn't really describe it that well, but a photo will do much better) the tip of the tongue 'somewhere' on the roof of your mouth, anywhere from that ledge behind your teeth to maybe the soft pallette, but usually more towards the front. the tongue should seal the air coming out anywhere but from near the back teeth (molars) on one side.

all that with a good constricted khorekteer

good luck

[Negeltu]

i guess you could say that it sounds like overtone singing because of your technique, but that's a very sort of simplified explanation.

I meant the descriptions of the mouth and tongue positions sound like the positions for OS. :) But your explanation helped tyvm

I know it can take awhile to get good, but I can't start upon that path UNTIL I understand the right technique. :) I'm not really out to get as good as I can as fast as I can. This is for my own personal enjoyment.

[throatsinger]

Negeltu, check your email.

[imnotelmo]

If you are getting Kargyraa first, then stick with that for
the time being. as you build more control with kargyraa
your muscles will gain the control and finesse needed to
switch to the other styles.

Get good solid khoomei before trying sygyt.

yes, there are many sites that call western Overtone style
Sygyt, don't be mislead, they are completely different techniques.

have a look at http://www.busker-kibbutznik.org/khoomei/HOW-TO/

[Negeltu]

Thanks for the info. :) I actually started learning from the Crash Course In Khoomei cd. I burned it to disc and listen everyday to really embed the info in my mind and ears. My question about the sygyt came about because I hear some people describe using the tip of the tongue and some saying make a small opening in the side behind the teeth. And some sample clips of sygyt I have heard have the person making an eeeeeeeee or errrr sound and I don't see how that's possible if the tongue is sealed against the roof of the mouth except for a whole in the side. eeee and eeerrrr sounds seem impossible that way. Are there various tongue positions that people use as a matter of personal preference?

I find I can get different karg styles by varying constriction and amount of air flow. Are there terms for types other than the dag and xovu? Or is it just a matter of personal style? I seem somewhat predisposed to kargyraa. I can do the karg all day and not feel strained or sore... but the xorekteer/khoomei I can get it for awhile and then it's like my throat forgets how to get into the position. It seems almost impossible to find the xorekteer/khoomei after doing the karg.

[imnotelmo]

with sygyt some folks have the opening on the
side (Steve Sklar explains this method thoroughly
in his online lesson) and some have the opening
at the roof of the mouth. In either case (or any
other variations) the opening is small. the jaw is
in more of an 'uh' position, 'ee' or 'err' is to
closed
and will greatly limit the range. the tongue tip
is either straight up (mine lands just in front
of where the hard and soft pallet meet) ot retroflexed
(curving back in a 'C' sort of shape).

Anything that describes the tongue tip being forward
or behind the teeth or the jaw in a 'ee' 'ew' or 'err'
position is really explaining Western Overtone style
even if they are calling it sygyt (and there are many
pages out there making that misnomer).

Ther is a huge variety of kargyraa sub-styles and
even native speakers can't entirely agree which subtle
differences define a style. So, especially as a non-
native, don't get hung up on the classifications. Just
know that kargyraa is a vast expanse for artistic
expression.



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[aiwetir]

with sygyt some folks have the opening on the
side (Steve Sklar explains this method thoroughly
in his online lesson) and some have the opening
at the roof of the mouth.

i have never heard of sygyt with the opening at the roof of the mouth, how is that possible with the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth ?

In either case (or any
other variations) the opening is small. the jaw is
in more of an 'uh' position, 'ee' or 'err' is to
closed
and will greatly limit the range.

agreed, but if struggling to begin sygyt, the higer note(s) can be achieved with a configuration closer to eee or errr. but like brian says, you'll likely only get that one note. don't get stuck on eee or errrr. listen to the tuvans and the lead in they almost always make as they are starting sygyt.

the tongue tip
is either straight up (mine lands just in front
of where the hard and soft pallet meet) ot retroflexed
(curving back in a 'C' sort of shape).

Anything that describes the tongue tip being forward
or behind the teeth or the jaw in a 'ee' 'ew' or 'err'
position is really explaining Western Overtone style
even if they are calling it sygyt (and there are many
pages out there making that misnomer).

i'm not sure i can agree with that totally. my tounge tip is not striaght up, and is just behind the teeth on the corner of that next little shelf behind the teeth. now i can put my tongue just fore of the soft pallet but FOR ME it chokes the sound and made me gag :P and has a very mongolian flavor (at least in the few seconds i've messed with it)
retroflexing is another thing. i've played with it a bit and what i end up doing is curling the tip of my tongue back, putting the bottom of the tip on the near vertical surface of that ledge behind the theeth, but in the end, push the rest of my tongue into the position i usually sing in. however, it does have a certain 'hollow' sound that i hear in some tuvan's sygyt.

i think we need to remember that people have to figure out what works for them.

[khomus-old]

For an opening at the roof of the mouth, I sort of have the tip of my tongue behind the teeth, maybe even further back than the alveolar ridge.  Then instead of the opening on the side towards the mollars, you have the opening at the front.  It's sort of like forming a very small tube with your tongue tip as the bottom and the roof of your mouth as the top, if that makes any sense.  That's how I started, anyway.  I've been trying for more on the isde now, and one of these fine days I'll have to order Steve's lesson.

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[imnotelmo]

--- aiwetir <khoomei@khoomei.com> wrote:

> ...
> i have never heard of sygyt with the opening at the
> roof of the mouth, how is that possible with the tip
> of the tongue on the roof of the mouth ?
> ...


people use openings in a wide variety of places.
it's all fairly individual.

if you can leave an opening at the side, why not
at the top? it's a very small opening no matter
where it is. most singers i've met don't even really
think about where the opening is, they just adjust
the sound by how it sounds and let the the brain
decide where the opening ends up without really
conciously thinking about it.






>
> ...
> i'm not sure i can agree with that totally. my
> tounge tip is not striaght up, and is just behind
> the teeth on the corner of that next little shelf
> behind the teeth...

with most anatomies, putting the tongue tip
behind the teeth forces a bit more of a closed
jaw (more towards 'er'), while keeping the tongue
tip further back allows for a lower jaw position
while still getting a good seal.

> ...
> i think we need to remember that people have to
> figure out what works for them.

absolutely!

like i said earlier, most Tuvans don't even
specifically think about the mechanics, they just
do what sounds best to them.



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[hjernespiser]

Then instead of the opening on the side towards the mollars, you have the opening at the front.  It's sort of like forming a very small tube with your tongue tip as the bottom and the roof of your mouth as the top, if that makes any sense.  That's how I started, anyway.

I started that way too. Acoustically you want an opening at either both sides or on one side otherwise it can sound breathy. The clear sound of sygyt depends on the sound wave resonating a certain way. The wave needs to bounce off a surface reflecting it back into the mouth.

[khomus-old]

Yep.  Although I don't see why you couldn't have it bounce off of the front teeth.  I understand that some singers do sygyt in a center position like the one we're talking about, rather than to one side or the other.  So I guess it can be done.  The side is harder, for me anyway, but I do agree, I think it sounds clearer.

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[hjernespiser]

Maybe it is possible to have the wave reflect off the front teeth. It is probably more complex than a simple 'having a surface to reflect the wave back into the mouth'. That surface probably needs to be at a certain distance. The goal is to get resonation going and this is where each individual needs to experiment with getting the sound like how Brian mentions. Each person needs to find out how they resonate since the shapes are all different. They need to experiement like with a retroflex tongue or the tip far back on the palate or more forward on the alveolar ridge or somewhere in the middle. You know you have it right when you can hear the clear overtone from proper khoomei (with a closed nasal passage) amplified.