Sygyt mouth and tongue positions

[aiwetir]

with most anatomies, putting the tongue tip
behind the teeth forces a bit more of a closed
jaw (more towards 'er'), while keeping the tongue
tip further back allows for a lower jaw position
while still getting a good seal.

lol i'm not sure about that either, i just had my whole family (by marriage so it's not hereditary ;)) do it and they were all able to have their jaws more open with the tip of the tongue in the teeth than anywhere else on the roof of the mouth and i watched the tongue pull the jaw up as it goes back, but if it works for you, i'll not say it won't ;)

Then instead of the opening on the side towards the mollars, you have the opening at the front. It's sort of like forming a very small tube with your tongue tip as the bottom and the roof of your mouth as the top, if that makes any sense. That's how I started, anyway.

I started that way too. Acoustically you want an opening at either both sides or on one side otherwise it can sound breathy. The clear sound of sygyt depends on the sound wave resonating a certain way. The wave needs to bounce off a surface reflecting it back into the mouth.

you both started that way and abandoned it, perhaps there's something to that then, eh ? ;)


there's definitely something to the tip of the tongue sealing the sound from coming out the roof of the mouth and having it come out the side, acoustics scientists (or whatever they call themselves) call it nodes and anti-nodes, but it's all just part of the filter the sound must go thru.

keep experimenting and keep an open mind and remember that nearly everyone's different.

now it seems i stretched the bottom of my tongue a bit and it's a little sore :-?

[hjernespiser]

you both started that way and abandoned it, perhaps there's something to that then, eh ? ;)

Take it easy with that tongue there.

When starting out, putting the tongue tip at the roof of the mouth is very awkward. Also if you don't have any guidance you usually start with what may come naturally. When I first started learning to throatsing (1999) I had no teachers. There was only what was written on some website on the Internet and the description was very basic and very lacking, along the lines of, "Make an er sound." The tongue tip doesn't touch the roof of the mouth in an American "er" sound :D

After attending a workshop with Chirgilchin I abandoned that method somewhat slowly. I hadn't found the right position until a long while later but until then I would still make noises with the "er" sound.

[imnotelmo]

--- aiwetir <khoomei@khoomei.com> wrote:

>... they were all able to have their jaws more
> open with the tip of the tongue in the teeth than
> anywhere else on the roof of the mouth ...

while keeping all the edges sealed?



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[aiwetir]

i had them hiss from the back of their teeth to make sure ;)

they ain't throat singers for sure, but my tongue's tired of this exercise, whatever works for you works for you, and that's what's important :D

[Negeltu]

i had them hiss from the back of their teeth to make sure ;)

they ain't throat singers for sure, but my tongue's tired of this exercise, whatever works for you works for you, and that's what's important :D

Maybe my tongue and mouth are deformed because it is near impossible for me.

[throatsinger]

Brian said, "...with sygyt some folks have the opening on the
side (Steve Sklar explains this method thoroughly
in his online lesson) and some have the opening
at the roof of the mouth. In either case (or any
other variations) the opening is small. the jaw is
in more of an 'uh' position, 'ee' or 'err' is to
closed and will greatly limit the range. the tongue tip
is either straight up (mine lands just in front
of where the hard and soft pallet meet) ot retroflexed
(curving back in a 'C' sort of shape).

Anything that describes the tongue tip being forward
or behind the teeth or the jaw in a 'ee' 'ew' or 'err'
position is really explaining Western Overtone style
even if they are calling it sygyt (and there are many
pages out there making that misnomer)..."

Brian, could you please explain this more clearly than you did earlier?

Either my understanding of sygyt is significantly different than that of some of you, or we have some semantic/definition issues to settle.

Retroflexed tongue: This may work better for some folks, remember everyone's anatomy is a bit (or lot) different. However, a slightly retroflexed tongue can cause the jaw to lower a bit, and in the case of someone who benefits from this difference it might seem advantageous. Too high a jaw will bring the tongue too close to the roof of the mouth, blocking the sound. Of course, this can be done without retroflexing the tongue.

Also, the sound cannot reflect directly off the front teeth at least in the way I understand it's been used here, as they are blocked by the tongue. But the space between the front (underside) of the lifted tongue-tip and the rear surface of the front teeth does have some impact on the sound, as does the space between the front surface of the front teeth and the lips/aperture. I do suspect as I've stated before, that the outside surface of the side teeth opposite the cheek helps to "sharpen" the sound.

It's possible to sing sygyt with the front teeth closed (touching). Not optimal, but doable. That tells us something. .

If I were to use a vowel simile, which I usually avoid, I'd say that the jaw and lip postition in khoomei are probably most like the "oo" with umlauts on 'em (not sure how to type those)... as in "khoomei."

I'd very much like to hear the sygyt of the posters on this thread and hear what kind of approaches are giving what kind of results. Brian, Stacy, Mike, Khomus... how about it? Let's hear some sygyt!

[Negeltu]

I would like to hear as well. Always interested in listening.

[imnotelmo]

as i'm in the middle of transition
it'll be a bit until i'll be able
to record and post something.

i can say that the sound does not
bounce off the back of my front
teeth as my tongue is straight up
(actually i'm working on more of
a retroflexed position) so the
tongue is between the sound and the teeth.



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[aiwetir]

I'd very much like to hear the sygyt of the posters on this thread and hear what kind of approaches are giving what kind of results. Brian, Stacy, Mike, Khomus... how about it? Let's hear some sygyt!

i'll mess around tomorrow and post some with tongue on the ridge and retroflexed, but again i think there's very little difference in my technique between the two. i doubt the recording equipment i have will pick it up, but it'll be interesting to find out. could learn something ;)

[aiwetir]

ha almost forgot, but i happened to be cleaning up my desktop and saw i forgot to post this.

recorded on the tiny mic in the powerbook, not a good one at all.
mono at 160kbps (which makes it 80 actually)
little bit of warm up, but also sitting at the pooter photoshopping some stuff so kinda casual.

not happy with the khorekteer or the transition to sygyt, (changes pitch) but c'est la vie, good enough for the internet :P

i ran out of breath too :D

http://xoomeii.com/mmmsygyt.mp3






.

[throatsinger]

Well, excuses aside, Mike, it's still one of the better "non-native" sygyts out there. Enough so that Johnna heard it from the other room and asked "who is that?" in a good way. 8)

There's a slightly muted quality that just prevents an even sharper, more focused tone. Check where you might be blocking the sound a bit, maybe around the soundhole in the back of your mouth, or between the cheek and side teeth, and make sure your "lip exit hole" is aligned, too.

Try giving more notes the "attack." That'll help define your phrasing and melodies.

Nice sound! Thanks for sharing.

[aiwetir]

no excuses really, just pre critiquing ;)

i forgot to mention that the mic was about 2.5 feet from the mouth too which i'm sure has a pretty big impact on the sound. (remember it's the tiny built in mic on a powerbook and you can clearly hear the hard drive spinning in the background) i had to amplify the sound about 75%.

i know of what you are talking about the muted quality because it was quiet in the house making it a little intimidating without the accompaniment of a car engine, cd, or igil. but also i often find the sound not finding it's way out even with the lips back, just one of those things i've got to figure out this year.

i just listened again and it is weak, i'll have to practice a bit more, been a bit out of practice
even so if i'm singing quietly it should still have a solid strong sound to it which this does not.

it's always good to record even casually because you can hear the differences so much more apparently outside your head than inside.


i forgot to mention too that i tried the retro flexed tongue just after that sample, but it wasn't really working that well so i didn't bother keeping the recording.

Well, excuses aside, Mike, it's still one of the better "non-native" sygyts out there. Enough so that Johnna heard it from the other room and asked "who is that?" in a good way. Cool

cool, does that mean i've graduated from the "american" sygyts :P:D;)

[throatsinger]

cool, does that mean i've graduated from the "american" sygyts

No.







Well, yeah, maybe!

So, Mike's the only one? Nobody else wants to share their sygyt?!?!

[khomus-old]

OK, you've convinced me.  As soon as I'm off the muscle relaxers and get my back straightened out, I'll put something up, embarrassing as it no doubt will be.

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[samC=']

And so I got convinced too and here are 3 quick sygyt files :

http://guimbarde.free.fr/chantdiph/sygyt001.mp3
http://guimbarde.free.fr/chantdiph/sygyt002.mp3
http://guimbarde.free.fr/chantdiph/sygyt003.mp3

Of course, its' a poor quality mic, but the singer isn't that good anyway.

I just begin to get a "better" khoomei voice, so I went a bit more into trying sygyt. Actually, my voice weaken quickly, after a few minutes of singing.

Thanks for any opinion and advices.

C='